tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post116368631056694795..comments2023-10-16T06:10:24.969-04:00Comments on Julie Unplugged: Better yet: Reza Aslan in his own words!Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00088119765077193302noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163784221741686522006-11-17T12:23:00.000-05:002006-11-17T12:23:00.000-05:00I am sorry, Liam, but just to show you the other s...I am sorry, Liam, but just to show you the other side, a Muslim like me is offended when you judge Islam and Muslims by the actions of one fanatic militant with no theological or social standing. It's like judging Christianity by the actions of gentleman who pulled the trigger on Archduke Ferdinand. Or Guy Fawkes. And not to start a fight, but the phrase "Kill them all, God will know his own." came from a person who ostensibly had an official position in the main organization claiming to represent Christendom--to a level Bin Laden, or even Khomeini could not. So should we judge Christianity by the actions of the Bishop of Citeaux?<BR/><BR/>If you do care to get an alternative opinion from another Muslim, no more and no less qualified, theologically, than the person the West seems obsessed with, you might want to read the following:<BR/><BR/>http://ifaqeer.blogspot.com/2006/09/flashback-9112001.html<BR/>http://ifaqeer.blogspot.com/2006/07/one-mans-terrorist.html<BR/>http://ifaqeer.blogspot.com/2006/07/pakistani-left-launch-movement-against.html<BR/>and so on.<BR/><BR/>I am working on a project that might be of interest, too:<BR/><BR/>http://themuslimcenter.wikispaces.com/iFaqeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11739713117247515590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163771954576188132006-11-17T08:59:00.000-05:002006-11-17T08:59:00.000-05:00ifaqeer, thank you for posting! I have checked out...ifaqeer, thank you for posting! I have checked out your site thoroughly now and also progressiveislam.org.<BR/><BR/>I agree that the primary problem for most Americans is lack of direct experience/knowledge of the issues that occur within the Muslim world itself. We tend to imagine that their primary focus is somehow on the west as a collective, rather than the idea that there is a world of people: leaders, scholars, politicians, religious who are in dialog, debate, contention for the direction of Islam globally.<BR/><BR/>I'll be back to your site. I welcome more feedback when you feel it is relevant.<BR/><BR/>Liam, I hear what you are saying, but I think that splits hairs a bit. There are plenty of Muslims who would say that the Koran does not give Muslims commands to kill the way you and I assumebin laden interprets those passages... it's at this point that we get into interpretations of texts and again, who has the right/authority to do it.<BR/><BR/>If we look at our own Scriptures, God is seen as killing all kinds of ethnic groups in the Old Testament and gives commands to the Jews to kill on his behalf. So I think within the texts themselves, you will find support for violence if you choose to read it that way.<BR/><BR/>One thing about Luther's quote. I have yet to find that one either, but I don't have extensive Luther material laying around. I do know from my limited reading of Luther, that he did make some startling pronouncements that wrankle our modern day sensibilities and the 30 years war was a real war that resulted from the Reformation. So... plausible, to me.<BR/><BR/>JulieAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00088119765077193302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163755470500235892006-11-17T04:24:00.000-05:002006-11-17T04:24:00.000-05:00Part of the problem, Julie, I think, is that those...Part of the problem, Julie, I think, is that those of "on the inside" often don't understand what it is that folks like you might need to know about Islam. And that's where Reza comes in. Thanks for spreading the world.<BR/><BR/>I have been covering Reza on my own blog for a while. Check out posts mentioning him:<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/yks33h<BR/><BR/>[That's a real link, honest, and not spam. If you are still wary, please go to http://ifaqeer.blogspot.com and search on Reza Aslan.]<BR/><BR/>Peace.iFaqeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11739713117247515590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163737532160499492006-11-16T23:25:00.000-05:002006-11-16T23:25:00.000-05:00Just thought I'd add my thoughts. As a moderate c...Just thought I'd add my thoughts. As a moderate christian I do quite often start off feeling offended when a comparison of someone like Bin Laden is made with someone like Luther. I do realize there are shameful acts in the history of our church as a whole. At the same time though I do wish to emphasize the main difference between the Islamic reformation and Christian one. Christian scriptures (specifically the New Testament) nowhere advise the killing of those who don't accept the faith. With the Luther Quote (which I can't find anywhere else, if someone knows where he got it from please let me know, Googles failing me this time) he wasn't quoting scripture to justify his advice of killing others. Bin Laden frequently does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163718514153149742006-11-16T18:08:00.000-05:002006-11-16T18:08:00.000-05:00Dave, about your other comments:Aslan expressed th...Dave, about your other comments:<BR/><BR/>Aslan expressed that there are moderate and even liberal Muslims in the Muslim world contending for alternative perspectives (particularly Muslim women who are not exactly feminists, but certainly not traditionalists). When there are conventions and meetings, often you'll find a range of Islamicists who hold a wide diversity of opinions about Islam.<BR/><BR/>One of the primary sources for a more de-mythologized Islam is the immigrant populations who live in America and western Europe. Aslan would be in that number.<BR/><BR/>So yes, that is yet another of the forces vying for power in this reformation. :)<BR/><BR/>JulieAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00088119765077193302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163718243576952072006-11-16T18:04:00.000-05:002006-11-16T18:04:00.000-05:00Dave, thanks for making me laugh! :)Kim, today in ...Dave, thanks for making me laugh! :)<BR/><BR/>Kim, today in class wetalkedabout how in the absence of a clerical authority, most of us resort to giving the text primacy of place as a way to certify our authority when we interpret it to others. The evidence that we have given a "right" interpretation is then validated by how many choose to come along and follow our viewpoint! As that number grows, so does the confidence of the interpreters to then claim that their interpretation is correct.<BR/><BR/>The Catholic church, in the 12th century, declaredthat when speaking ex cathedra, the popes were speaking for God - infallibly. As my professor said today, that declaration has had farreaching effects beyond those limited statements. The aura of authority is now tied to the papacy even when not speaking ex cathedra. A weightiness of truth is attached to a papal statement because the church sees himas the last place the buck stops for true interpretations of the faith.<BR/><BR/>So whether Protestant or Catholic, there are means by which we use the text and our traditions to add weight to our claims to speak authoritatively and this is just what's happening in Islam. He who has the most followers... wins!<BR/><BR/>JulieAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00088119765077193302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163715081228678152006-11-16T17:11:00.000-05:002006-11-16T17:11:00.000-05:00Julie, do you pick up in Reza Aslan's presentation...Julie, do you pick up in Reza Aslan's presentation anything resembling the post-critical perspective that many of today's Christians are incorporating into their understanding of their own religious tradition? To me, that's an important, maybe the most important, development that I'd like to see come out of all this turbulence in the Islamic world. I still get the sense that the vast majority of Muslims approach the Koran from a literalistic perspective and that too much superstition (in the guise of reverence) is attached to Muhammad, the Koran and most of the Muslim rituals and mythos surrounding Mecca and all that. Putting the controversy about Osame bin Laden aside for the moment, I'm glad to read that Islam is becoming less hierarchical, more culturally literate, even more pluralistic. To me, that's all good, whether its happening in Christianity or in other religions. I can understand why the conflict would get violent and even apocalyptic, since the clerics would disagree with my assessment and see mostly only negatives in these developments - so they'll ramp up the resistance, as will the "reformers" and up goes the conflict cycle until something eventually snaps. <BR/><BR/>I just wonder if Aslan has a position on where Islam should go from here, or is he merely a sideline observer?David Blakesleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12167200509158903679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163713455041694542006-11-16T16:44:00.000-05:002006-11-16T16:44:00.000-05:00I just want to stop and appreciate this point:But ...I just want to stop and appreciate this point:<BR/><BR/><I>But what most connects bin Laden and the Reformation radicals of the 16th century is his deliberate attempt to seize for himself the powers traditionally reserved for the institutional authorities of his religion. Luther challenged the papacy's right to be the sole interpreter of the Scripture; bin Laden challenges the right of the clerical establishment to be the sole interpreters of Islamic law. That is why he repeatedly issues his own fatwas, despite the fact that, as the Amman declaration sought to remind Muslims, only a cleric affiliated with one of Islam's recognized schools of law has the authority to do so.</I><BR/><BR/>My ex-church has addressed the problems of individualism of belief with a return to and claim of orthodoxy. I think that is their way of cementing their authoritative role as the arbiters of correct doctrine -- appeal to a higher and more ancient authority, namely orthodoxy. Who can argue with that? Well, I could. But that is another story :-).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163713371719771852006-11-16T16:42:00.000-05:002006-11-16T16:42:00.000-05:00So I suppose that somewhere out there is a blogger...So I suppose that somewhere out there is a blogger who goes by PoMoSlem...?David Blakesleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12167200509158903679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163711675271731422006-11-16T16:14:00.000-05:002006-11-16T16:14:00.000-05:00http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-389967444...http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3899674444845303043&q=reza+aslanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163701373284407122006-11-16T13:22:00.000-05:002006-11-16T13:22:00.000-05:00Here are some more thoughts from me on the subject...<A HREF="http://stratopastor.typepad.com/stratopastor/2006/11/reformation_wit.html" REL="nofollow"><BR/>Here</A> are some more thoughts from me on the subject for those of you who are interested. Thanks for the forum, Julie...great stuff here!preacherrusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00370023647661078579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163694820815666612006-11-16T11:33:00.000-05:002006-11-16T11:33:00.000-05:00Hi Julie, Thanks for sharing this...and...I agree ...Hi Julie,<BR/><BR/> Thanks for sharing this...and...I agree with Russ that it "won't play well in Peoria or Saddleback", and particularly Bakersfield, because people are prone to elevate and mythologize the champions of their causes. It appears to be the nature of the beast in the political and religious arenas in the past and present. I was reminded of this recently when a talk show radio host was comparing George Bush's presidency with Abraham Lincoln's and he was asserting that Bush would eventually be remembered as a modern day Lincoln because he was a man who has stood by his principles in the face of hostile criticsm....Maybe...because...historical interpretation has always been monopolized by the winners and not the losers.....Bilbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904580918080106725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163692581828390462006-11-16T10:56:00.000-05:002006-11-16T10:56:00.000-05:00I agree that his connection with Martin Luther may...I agree that his connection with Martin Luther may not go over well (as is evident even on my blog and at the event where he lectured). One of the women who asked him questions charged him with the unfair comparison of a violent man like bin Laden with a peaceful man like Luther. To this, Aslan then read the quote by Luther (which was in this article) that shows how Luther thought about the peasants being murdered in the name of the reformation... chilling moment. The woman then said she had never heard of the 30 years war or the peasant revolt and would do some research.<BR/><BR/>Indeed.<BR/><BR/>We have our own history that we don't even understand!<BR/><BR/>One of the interesting drumbeats in his speech had to do with reminding everyone that reformation is neither good nor bad. It simply is. There was a Muslim woman who wanted to make it clear that none of her Muslim friends or country mates saw bin Laden as a reformer. She shouted over him several times and he finally silenced her with the mic and said that she had missed the entire point of his talk. Reformation is not about improving things, but changing them. Reformation is occuring and bin Laden is one voice in that struggle to reform Islam. Like him or not!<BR/><BR/>In that sense, I found it easy to listen to him compate to xtnty then. Luther is loved by some and hated by others, but none can deny that his voice was primary in changing the face of Christianity for the rest of time.<BR/><BR/>JulieAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00088119765077193302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163690628350823842006-11-16T10:23:00.000-05:002006-11-16T10:23:00.000-05:00This guy's brilliant...obviously. His connection o...This guy's brilliant...obviously. His connection of Bin Laden with Martin Luther probably won't play well in Peoria (or at Saddleback), but when you start to think of what's happening along the lines of the Reformation, it all makes great sense.<BR/><BR/>The interesting thing to me is that the Gutenberg revolution somehow bypassed the Muslim community, but the internet hasn't. This probably is connected to the interconnected business world which has made computers mandatory for moving forward in the global culture.preacherrusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00370023647661078579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9684236.post-1163690279558631372006-11-16T10:17:00.000-05:002006-11-16T10:17:00.000-05:00I finished my paper and will post it tomorrow. I h...I finished my paper and will post it tomorrow. I hope some of you will comment on this article so we can discuss it. His lecture was more comprehensive than this (he spent about two hours talking and then answering questions), but the themes are all represented here.<BR/><BR/>JulieAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00088119765077193302noreply@blogger.com